Jennifer Yoffy  00:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the founder and publisher of Yoffy Press in Atlanta, Georgia. This is a podcast where we talk to artists about their journey, how they got where they are, what right and wrong turns they made along the way, and where they're heading next. Hans Gremman is a graphic designer based in Amsterdam. He works in photography, architecture and fine art and has designed over 300 books. He's won many awards for his experimental designs, among them a golden medal in the Best Books from all over the World competition. In 2008, he founded Fw:Books, a publishing house with a focus on photography related projects and books. Together with Roma Publications he recently founded Enter Enter a project space in the center of Amsterdam, which explores the boundaries of the book. Please welcome Hans Gremmen.  So, first, I just have to have like a fangirl moment for a minute. So I'm apologize in advance. But I always tell people with you as a designer, it's like, if I, if I was going to make a wedding dress, at the end of much toiling, it would be white. But it wouldn't look anything like if Vera Wang was going to make a wedding dress, because you look at that up close. And you're like, Oh, that's brilliant. And that's how I feel about your design work. And I've always felt that way since before working with you and before meeting you. And so it's super exciting to have you here. And sometimes it just, you're one of those people, I wish I could just like dump your whole brain into my whole brain and be like, Ah, that's how it's done. So, this is not going to be that. But I am going to ask you some questions. I was thinking about designing and photo books. And there are obviously a lot of different types of photo books or different types of photography, like documentary or conceptual, narrative, which do you enjoy working with most and which do you find most challenging?

Hans Gremmen  02:20

I'm not sure if it's, if it's a genre which I specifically prefer? I think it's well, sometimes, if it's really like hardcore documentary, then that's, then it's very challenging. Because there is... ummm... that sometimes that that's a bit..., you would say that's one of the easier things because there's a clear narrative, and you just follow that...

Jennifer Yoffy  02:55

Right

Hans Gremmen  02:58

Which is also the case a lot of times, and especially if it's if it's a combination with text, and then it sort of edits itself if you just follow the narrative. But for one, I don't know, it's also the story is so important, and that it's hard to add anything. It's not that I'm designing and I'm always looking for ways to add things or make things more complex or arty or whatever. But there's this thin line that it can work, that I can really add something to the project. And I think there's other designers who really stand out in more documentary work.

Jennifer Yoffy  03:46

Do you feel like documentary is like more pressure that way? Because you have to make sure that you're being so true to the story.

Hans Gremmen  03:56

Yeah, it's that in a lot of other cases as well, but and it's also a bit how you define documentary because a few years ago, I was working with Andres Gonzalez on American Origami, which is in itself you could say it's documentary, or at least it wants to document a specific event or a series of events and wants to tell a story behind that in a sort of parallel world. But that's a bit more conceptual documentary, I would say.

Jennifer Yoffy  04:34

Right, then like photojournalism would be.

Hans Gremmen  04:35

Exactly, photojournalism is it's something which I find find hard to deal with. And I don't know really why it's just, it's too specific, I think. But for the rest, it's more about the people who make it, that you try to find a shared attitude of what a book could be and what a book could contribute to a specific project. And then if that attitude is shared, or you have the same goal, then it doesn't really matter what kind of material it is, or what genre or something like that. And I think that's more or less the key. So it's more about the person behind it and the actual output of the person.

Jennifer Yoffy  05:23

Beyond the work, it's the having a similar mindset in the person you're collaborating with. Someone that wants a super traditional photo book, you're probably not the right fit for them, you're going to be thinking about things differently.

Hans Gremmen  05:40

That's true. But, in one of the first conversations, I don't always ask it, but if I sense that there's this wish of a traditional photo book, I always ask what do people have in mind for this kind of book. Also, because sometimes if you look at the work, and talk about it, and also because I'm also publishing books, I like to have the first conversation very open and if I think, Oh, that's better served if it's published by Spector Books, or by Mac Books, or by Aperture or whatever then I also ask, Why didn't you approach them? or Why did you approach me. But in general, I think it has to work from both ways. I have to be open minded towards the wishes and the expectations of the artist or photographer involved. And the other way around, as well. I remember making the first book with Awoiska van der Molen, the Sequester. And she really had this wish of making it a hardcover book and I thought we should do anything but a hardcover. But then in the end, I took it serious, why she just envisioned her work in a hardcover book. So then I tried to not say okay, we're going to make it a fluffy softcover. But, now it's a bit in between a hardcover and softcover. It's using like a thick cardboard, on front and back, and then with the dust jacket around it. So it's debatable if it's hardcover or softcover, but it comes from this question of her, of this wish of making it such a type of book. And then I thought, yeah, maybe there's interesting alternatives. I think that's a nice way of working together. I mean, and then in the end she was open to having an alternative hardcover. And so it's flexibility from both ways and that you have this desire to, to be both - sometimes if needed - outside your comfort zone and to think about the material in a pure way, and not with a pre assumption of what kind of thing you want. Also, I want to emphasize it is also for me; I also have a preference for specific books, but it would also be very boring. If I would make those kind of books over and over. It's really a dialogue in which you don't know the outcome. And that's also the exciting part and sometimes the scary part of the whole thing.

Jennifer Yoffy  08:48

So, before you went to art school, you train for several years to do graphic production work. How does having a printing background or how has having a printing background informed your book design?

Hans Gremmen  09:02

I think very much, it was a printing background, but also like pre press and my internship was half year, I was working for half a year at the advertising agency and my job was every Monday to make sure that in the darkroom where the photo machines were to have that cleaned and to to make that technically perfect. (At the time, it was still on the edge of analog/digital in the 90s. And so a lot of the advertisements which were made were not sent in the email to the print to the newspaper but they were photographically printed on photographic paper and then a bike messenger would bring, every evening, all these things to the newspaper and they could make a montage of all the sheets.) So it's like pre press press and very practical. And that helped me a lot because I became very familiar with the whole printing industry, I understand the way paper works on a production level. I mean, of course, it's evolved immensely since that time. But in essence, I understand how these things work. So that also gives me the position to question every now and then how this works. And to challenge binders or printers to say, Okay, I know you normally would bind at the left hand side, but can we just try it upside down, inside out? And let's see what happens. Because if you meet with the machines in a different way, if you use them in a different way, then I'm curious what the outcome will be. That's what I really like about working with with paper and printed matter. Because every now and then I also design websites, but then I feel a bit uncomfortable because I don't have the feeling that I control that medium on all levels, it's a different way of designing. And then...

Jennifer Yoffy  11:18

The website, you mean?

Hans Gremmen  11:20

Yeah, websites, or web design, or making apps or these kind of things. It's also design, and it's also sometimes the right thing to do. But I have the feeling that I cannot offer what I can offer if I think about paper and ink and these kind of things,

Jennifer Yoffy  11:37

Right. Because you have this deep knowledge. Do printers and binders get nervous when you call them? Are they like, Oh, no, here comes Hans again with one of his crazy ideas, you make us turn our machines upside down?

Hans Gremmen  11:50

Well, unfortunately, the last years they go bankrupt every one after another. But I don't have anything to do with that. But it's similar to with working with a with an artist who is like minded, same goes for the printer and the same goes for the binder. I think they would really like to be challenged in that sense. But I also work with a set of binders and printers. So for each job, I think I try to assemble the best team possible. And I think this is really something for this binder or this printer.

Jennifer Yoffy  12:42

...Just depending on what the design specs are and what you know, their capabilities are.

Hans Gremmen  12:48

Yeah, sometimes if I think binding is really important, then, that sometimes it's also connected with the kind of printer you choose, because they have relations as well. among each other. Yeah, and also with this, I try to have a very open conversation and make tests if needed. And also ask them if they think I should make tests so that they're comfortable as well.

Jennifer Yoffy  13:17

What are some examples of books you've designed that have benefited from the deep knowledge you have of the printing process? Like some some books where you've really pushed the boundaries?

Hans Gremmen  13:29

Yeah. Well, the first thing which comes to mind is of course, Andres Gonzalez's American Origami. And there it was a bit of deep knowledge and it's also sometimes very elementary knowledge. But sometimes it also good to be a bit naive, because for instance, with this complex way of binding, there was something that's very sophisticated. Binders were thinking too complex. And then I found like a super straightforward, almost office like binder and for them, it was no problem. And, of course, we can do that. And then they made a few tests. So it's a bit balancing between sometimes daring to ask the unexpected or the bit naive question. And also, once I made this book between the volumes printed on black paper, with the inverted printing technique, with a negative white and then with a bit full color on top of that, and everybody understood the idea, but then the machines didn't because there's this sort of printing press has an eye as well to check every sheet of paper. And there's also always this color bar on top of the paper and of course on black paper it didn't recognize it, or it was it was inverted. So then it's sort of stopped printing and I had to put tape on the on the machine to cheat the machine in a way. And then I had to be on press, which I was planning to do anyway. I had to be on press because normally you use this information also to calibrate the machine. But we had to do it on the spot there to say, Okay, this looks good. But I was planning to be there anyway, so that was fine.

Jennifer Yoffy  15:32

Are all the printers and binders you work with pretty local, too? Are they all in the Netherlands?

Hans Gremmen  15:36

I prefer that. Yeah, it's not it's not a given. I mean, I'm open. But, I like that simply because then I have the feeling I control the process.

Jennifer Yoffy  15:46

There's such a benefit to being there you know? Versus The States where I get everything, almost everything, printed overseas.

Hans Gremmen  15:54

Yeah, no, I like that a lot, too. It's also nice these trips, too. I mean, now it's, of course, different. I have to be in separate rooms for safety, and all these kinds of things. But in normal situation, I've really, really enjoyed these trips to go into a press and be there for a whole day, eat horrible food from a gas station or whatever. It's all part of the experience. That's super nice. I mean, I really liked it. And also, that you have a lot of time in between printing, because printing a sheet and then it takes an hour to print the second sheet. And then if you if you say the first sheet is okay, you have to wait basically, loads of times for an hour or something, but then it's nice to walk around. And then I always go to the trash and see what they were printing on other books or, or these kind of things, and that it always gives you ideas or you have time to talk with a printer, about totally different things. But it's sort of, it's really nice to plug into that world in that way. On the indirect level, you always benefit, I think, from being on press for that specific job, it is important. But it also helps other jobs, future jobs are passed...

Jennifer Yoffy  17:12

Right, spark ideas, and seeing materials, maybe.

Hans Gremmen  17:16

Definitely, seeing papers, seeing materials. And also, I once found out when we were reprinting a book, or printing a book, that this press was this printing house, did art books, but then in a different area. They did food production labels, like the labels which goes on cans, from beans, or soup or these kind of things. And they were using paper, which I was already looking for these cans, it's but it's very specific. But it has nothing to do with the art world. But they were using paper which I was looking for, often, when I wanted to make an art book for a dust jacket or for inserts. And they always told me it's not possible. It's not available. And it's not available in the standard art book world but it's available in another field. And that's that was a really nice discovery because then you can say, oh, but if you use that pile of paper, and you bring it to this area, then I think we could we could make it work. And in the end, it was a sort of failed experiment. But...

Jennifer Yoffy  18:29

Oh, it didn't work out?

Hans Gremmen  18:31

Yeah, it did. But it's, well, it's really like a different world I found out. I could maybe use it for labels or for other things, but, for the one thing I had in mind, it didn't really work. But nevertheless, it was nice to make that connection and to see if that could work.

Jennifer Yoffy  18:54

So why did you move from the production side to the design side? And has the book form always been your focus and your passion?

Hans Gremmen  19:03

Well, it was somehow a long journey. I think at first I did four years of this practical thing, practical education. And then it was in my final year, a teacher of mine told me Did you ever consider going to art school? But I didn't really like...

Jennifer Yoffy  19:21

I wish he had said something four years ago?

Hans Gremmen  19:24

No, I think after being really educated on a super practical level, I was really eager to think in a more conceptual way because there was not space for that in that school. And having all this knowledge of four years, I knew all the programs, how they worked like Illustrator, Photoshop, Quark Express was in those days, still the standard, which is now InDesign, but I really understood all these technical parts so I could save all my time skipping those courses in art school, and just focus on totally different things like concepts and talking with other people about their work. I was in the art school, I wanted to do everything. I applied as a photographer with photos. But then I wanted to do sculpting. I made sculptures and then I made movies and everything, I thought was fun. But I was a bit lost after one year about what to choose, because the first year was basic year, you don't really have to choose. Everything is together. So you do painting, you do everything. But then I found out at the end of the year that what I enjoyed most was talking to other people about their ideas. And then I was reacting to what they were saying, they were making paintings and I would say Oh, that's quite nice. And yeah, maybe if I reconstruct this, it sounds like a super annoying person who walks into your life. Did you ever consider painting in other colors?

Jennifer Yoffy  21:12

You're like, that's nice, but I think it could be better. (laughs)

Hans Gremmen  21:16

Could it be smaller? And with triangles? But you know, it was somehow I felt, um.... So it's hard to reconstruct how that exactly went. But this interactions with people and partly also, because then I found out I'm stronger in reacting to other people's content than to come up with my own ideas to say simple. There's a difference between initiating and reacting. And, in my case, a lot of times, it starts with reacting and then initiating ideas, it's sort of natural response also to that.

Jennifer Yoffy  21:58

That's interesting, because I was gonna ask you about collaboration, it seems to be a pretty large focus for you. And it's something that's a really high value of mine. So is that what primarily drives your interest in collaborating? I mean, you had like your publishing imprint, and you're in Enter Enter, and obviously, all the projects that you're designing, so is it that back and forth, that drives you that fuels the ideas?

Hans Gremmen  22:28

Definitely. And that's also why in the end I chose graphic design, because then I thought it's sort of like a melting pot for all these kind of disciplines of people. And, and then I feel I can add something to it. So that's what I then chose and then I did a postgraduate typography course, after the art school, and then I simply started as a freelance designer. And in the beginning, it was a lot of work I did that was architecture based or for architects making their portfolios, making books for architecture publishers. And then all of a sudden, I got a question from a friend of mine from art school, who had a collective with photographers, and they wanted to make a magazine. And I was really happy because I'd never worked with photography. But it must be nice to do because before it was mostly typographic what I was doing. So I was very excited to shift and then I found out I really had this affinity with the medium. And so yeah, that's somehow how things started. But it's definitely the interaction but also that's why I still like to do not only work for Fw books, but also I really enjoy doing commissioned work as well. Simply because it's the same in a different way of thinking. I like it because it's nice to have control on the one hand, like with Fw books, I'm more in control of all productions and these kind of things. But it's also really nice to just focus on edit and a design, and then hand it over to somebody else who is then taking care of production, or making a signage system for a museum. And also I really enjoy making a typeface if it's needed for a specific exhibition. I like this diversity of things.

Jennifer Yoffy  24:48

You and I have collaborated on a book and are about to or in early stages of a second and you've talked about the importance of the moment you see the work for the first time, like having that first look without context. And so I was thinking about just, I don't know how much of the backstory.... First of all, the audience doesn't know the backstory. And I don't know how much you know about my side. But, um, so I met Drew Nikonowicz at Paris Photo at an Aperture party. And he had won the Aperture Portfolio Award as an undergrad. And so he was there, and he was probably definitely the youngest person there. And then he looked like the youngest person there by like, 15 years, because he looked like he was 14. And I met him. And I was with Doug Dubois, who is a friend, and who, on many occasions had raved about his experience working with you, on My Last Day at Seventeen. And which is a book that I love. So I had that kind of on one side of my head, and then I meet Drew, and we're just chatting and later on, I looked up his work and was like, This is so strong. And I was just starting Yoffy Press. So he and I spoke for a long time, at least a year before we decided we would work together. And we decided that the design was going to be really important with this book. So I thought of you immediately. And I think maybe Doug did an email intro and I'm telling him back and forth, like how do you work? Can I hire you? And then I was like, okay, so let me just tell you the name of the artist, so you can look and see if you're even interested. And you wrote back right away and said that you just been to Foam, Unseen in Amsterdam, and that for days, you looked at all of this work, and you came back with one name in your notebook, and it was Drew Nikonowicz. So back to that first look. What was your impression of Drew's work? And what did writing his name down in the notebook mean?

Hans Gremmen  27:06

Yeah, it's still if you reconstruct it, this is exactly how I recollect it. I mean, this is still for me, it's a bit unbelievable story that it happened like this also timing wise that, first indeed, we were exploring, in general how to work together, and then you mentioned his name. And then really a few days, before that, I saw his work at the Aperture stand at Unseen. And why I wrote his name, if I go to these kinds of events, they're always a bit overwhelming. So I, I walk around quite quickly, a lot of times, and then I do another round and another round. And then if I'm curious, if I feel that something is appealing, or that I want to know more about what's intriguing, then I write the name down, because I don't want to, I mean, you can Google on the thing, but I want to postpone it and take my time to really study it. And to understand it more, you see the work, and then you have ideas in your head where it comes from. But I'm not going to read into it, so it's more that I feel the need to check my intuition afterwards. Yeah, and there was something in his work or in his view on using the medium and also reflecting on the medium that I recognized about how I was thinking, every now and then how I look at photography and the role of photography and also in the relation to landscape. So there was some sort of similar or familiar look on things, but in a very fresh and new way for me. So that's why I wrote his name down. And then there was this crazy fortunate event that you already had plans working with him. And then we decided to share and co-publish it, which I'm still happy with that we did that. Yeah, I think Drew has this this amazing quality of looking at things and investigating things in a theoretical way, which is at the same time, aesthetical way and reflecting way and it's like a it's a loop of things. And always you're not really sure what you're looking at and in a very intriguing way. So that's very appealing.

Jennifer Yoffy  29:49

When you and Drew work together he came over and you guys spent a few days and now that's not an option. So we're also working on Jon Horvath's book, This Is Bliss and so that's not an option. And I suppose hasn't been an option for you in the past year. Has COVID made it more difficult or have you realized that you can be just as effective and collaborating with an artist online?

Hans Gremmen  30:14

Yeah, definitely. It's in that sense. I wouldn't say it made it more easy. But I was already very familiar with with working remotely with people. The first book I did with Aperture, was with Rinko Kawauchi, she was in Japan, I was in Amsterdam, and Lesley Martin from Aperture was in New York. So that's three impossible time zones, there's always somebody sleeping, so that it's hard to even make a Skype call together. But it's okay, we did everything with mail and it's done, then it sort of starts to work in your benefit, because then if I write a mail, then in during my day there, Leslie picks it up during her day, and then Rico Komachi picks it up during her day, and then it's sort of working in a good way, then it's like accelerating. Then if I open the mail a day later than it's already...

Jennifer Yoffy  31:14

Right, it's already gone through the circuit.

Hans Gremmen  31:17

Right, it's going around the world non stop. So definitely with Skype and Zoom things, which I'm, at the moment after a year of COVID completely fed up with, but, uhhh...

Jennifer Yoffy  31:32

I'm fed up with it, and yet I still talk on mute, like an idiot. And I'm like, we should really have this down by now.

Hans Gremmen  31:40

No, but it's true, but especially Skype, I like because it's also easy to share screen of course with Zoom as well. And then I share my screen, I opened my InDesign file, and then we just talk the way through the InDesign file. And I also do it now with people who come from Rotterdam, which just an hour by train. And, of course, now it's still a lockdown situation. But nevertheless, it made me realize that if this person who I work with in Rotterdam would take a train, he would leave at 9am in the morning, he's a 10am in Amsterdam, he's 10:30 at my studio, we have a coffee at 11 we started work for maybe one two hours, then he goes back, it's good. It's costing him a whole day. Now I check in with him at nine o'clock. And at 9:45, we are done. I have a whole day, he has a whole day. So in that sense, it's definitely more efficient to work in this way. And it's not inferior to the one way over to the other way. I think would be true. It was it was super nice that he that he visited also because then we could of course talk about paper and these kind of things and about tactility and the technical part of the design process, it's more difficult to do online. That's more sending back and forth now with prints and FedExing things. So it's not a handicap at all, actually, this whole COVID situation and all the limitations. It's a bit less fun, in that sense. That's fine. Yeah, I mean, but it's okay. I don't feel that limited or that I designed differently or collaborate differently. Still with people also, I think Andres I met for the first time during Paris Photo when the book was finished. There was a possibility to do things together. But we did everything remotely and it's okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  33:49

So as you know, I asked everyone this question, and I prepped you, right, yeah. Okay, because it's been it throws everyone off. So I'm like, how about we... Okay, so I asked everyone this question, what was the best career decision you've made?

Hans Gremmen  34:06

Yeah, it's, you prep me but still, it's a heck of a question. Well, it's the easy Greek, rather definitely starting Fw Books. Also, to have that as a, as a playground or also as a I don't want sound corny, but also a bit as a family. It's like a growing group of people, like minded and a lot of them I also call my friends after working with them. You have a special bond. And I also like to be responsible for not just designing but also for..., and then what, like having all these boxes and to push them everywhere and try to make that work, going to fairs. Seeing that part of the spectrum. But also Enter Enter, the project space we have, in my studio I showed  Rebekah Williams from Homer Publications. It's also the same energy that making a book, it's so much more than just designing it's, there's a lot of production of parts, and then the distribution part, designing, conceptualization, but also researching what other people are doing. So, the whole thing I liked very much. And then as a counter, the best decision was also I think, Leslie Martin was one of the first publishers who asked me... I was doing Fw Books for quite a while, making my books with people, and then she approached me, because she talked with Rinko Kawauchi, if I wanted to collaborate with them. In the beginning, I was a bit hesitant because then I, I felt a bit like, oh, but then what does it mean? And I sensed that I was immediately, I mean, I knew the work of Rinko and I loved it. And I of course I knew Aperture. And there was very, yeah, so it was like, ideal situation. But my doubt was a bit in that, how does this work? Because what I normally do, is I basically can do whatever I like together with the artist involved. But if there's a like other imprint, which of course hold interest in the project as well. I was sort of almost trapped in a sort of self censorship that I thought, Oh, then I have to make a safe book, then I have to make a book, which is not experimental, because then it maybe doesn't sell and I felt very responsible for that. So I was doubting a bit if I should do it. But I was really, really happy that I did it. And then I thought in the beginning, I came up with an idea, which was quite experimental, with printing reversed the images in negative colors on the inside of paper. And you can see....

Jennifer Yoffy  37:11

I'm obsessed with that book.

Hans Gremmen  37:13

But I never thought they would agree to that, to be honest. But I thought, I want to send it because I think it's a good idea. And at least it's a starting point. Also, to see what's my position? What do you want from me? And what can I do for you? And then immediately Rinko and Leslie they both embraced it fully, without any reservation. So that really was an important moment, because then I thought, Okay, this is the biggest limit, you can limit yourself so much.

Jennifer Yoffy  37:56

You can make an assumption....

Hans Gremmen  37:58

It's an assumption to think they want this kind of book. And then you start making that kind of book. And then you somehow lose yourself. And also, so that was for me an important point.

Jennifer Yoffy  38:11

You realized you could be authentic as a designer, even if you weren't working within your own empire.

Hans Gremmen  38:17

And then it really got better. If I look back at the first proposal, and it even got more bit crazy during the process. And Leslie and Rinko were really encouraging me to push it really to the maximum.

Jennifer Yoffy  38:41

Awesome. So can you talk about a wrong turn you made and what you learned from it?

Hans Gremmen  38:48

Yeah, it's that sometimes you ignore your instinct. Because sometimes I get the question if I want to work on a project and then the work is great. But then you start working and you feel that the attitudes are not aligned or that you're not like minded. Well, basically, the definition of making a good book is very subjective. And it goes from binders to printers to people or to artists involved or to designers. They all have their own definition. And in the beginning, I was a bit naive and thinking that if you make a good book, it's okay. But sometimes people are looking for a different kind of good book. And then I was sort of trapped between my own ideas and understanding the wishes of somebody else. And then you end up sort of with a Frankenstein kind of thing. And you know it when you're making it, but then at a certain point, you spent one and a half years working on it, and the other person as well. And then you think Yeah, what, what, what's now best to do? Should we just cancel it? Because it's sort of not going anywhere? But it's very painful for everybody involved. But I had to do that once or twice. Or maybe? Well, yeah, well, a few times.

Jennifer Yoffy  40:35

Where you just said, This isn't working and stopped?

40:38

Yeah

Jennifer Yoffy  40:39

As opposed to just putting out something that you knew wasn't working.

Hans Gremmen  40:42

Yeah, I did that also in the past, a few times. And I know, that's extremely frustrating for the rest of your life to make it very dramatic, because once it's there, you're confronted with it. Every moment you think about it, it's there. And I think, well, it's the lesson I learned from this is that until something is really finished, everything should be on the table and should be in the most drastic way. You should be able to talk about it. And it's also happened to me once that I was making a design of a book, and then the artist involved changed publisher. So I was working on a book for two years, and then they changed publisher, but then the publisher had their own in house designer. So I was kicked out to it sort of, but I understood that and I wasn't angry. I mean, it was a bit silly for my time. But that's how things go. And yeah, I think it's important to have always this open discussion. And also to have these things in hindsight to think Yeah, I thought that would be a good idea. But I think it can be sometimes frustrating with people if you work in this way. Because it can feel that it's out of the blue that you think I'm not sure if this is working. But yeah, I try to be as honest and open about it as possible. But it can be painful every now and then. But I refuse to make something that I don't really agree to, I can't, I cannot do it. Because then I get lack of interest and then I think oh whatever, I will send the invoice and have fun with the whole thing. That's making me feel really bad if I do this kind of things.

Jennifer Yoffy  42:38

Right. Now, you know the consequences.

Hans Gremmen  42:40

Exactly. And I always try to be, if this happens now, it sounds like it's happening every day. But it really happens only a few times in the past 15 years, or 20. I try to be productive, that you link people to other people who you think they are great, and introduce them to them and be supportive.

Jennifer Yoffy  43:03

Yeah. So last question. Um, you've designed, I saw over 300 books and...

Hans Gremmen  43:11

I stopped counting. I don't know, I can count, but I have no idea.

Jennifer Yoffy  43:17

You've designed lots of books, some of which you've also authored or edited, you created a long form film about the American landscape. You have a publishing imprint and a project space, you've won awards. Do you feel like you've accomplished everything that you'd originally set out to do in the book space or is there still a lot you want to do or both?

Hans Gremmen  43:49

Well, the question I can answer on various levels, because I'm quite happy with how things were going so far. And especially the wish to do a project space to have a project space like Enter Enter. That was definitely on my list, which was nice. But it only works if you have a nice place and the circumstances were ideal. We can do this for five years at least to see to see if it works. And that's really great. Is there anything else that I look forward to now? I hope to be able to stay so lucky to meet interesting people with interesting questions because that's really what what I need. Or of course, I can also influence it myself, but I have to...

Jennifer Yoffy  44:49

Fuel your creativity and...

Hans Gremmen  44:51

Yeah, and also to keep going and it's growing. I still see it as a growing thing. And the practices in that sense are quite dynamic. But yeah, I don't have like a wish list of that sense, I take things as they as they come. And I really believe in a sort of natural way of how things evolve and go and I'm just happy that there's also this mix of commissioned work and self initiated work. Well, maybe there is, there's one thing, which is also good to say out loud, to make it more possible for me. You mentioned this movie about the Mother Road, and I did a few other things about the American landscape. It's a bit like playful research, a case study, theoretical thing, experimental, like small experiments around the perception of the American landscape. And for, I think, three or four years, or even longer, I'm afraid. I carry this folder around; like a growing book with self written texts and small experiments. And it's, I think it's already 500 pages. I'm not sure if I will ever finish it or that if that's the purpose, but maybe that's, that's something which in the end, I would regret if I wouldn't finish that one book.

Jennifer Yoffy  46:41

Or do something with it.

Hans Gremmen  46:42

Yes, do something with it. And I do little things with it every now and then. Make small chapters, visual, like the movie or like, look at point, another publication or objects in mirror, or so every now and then I use it. But like the overall, like almost an encyclopedic kind of volume. That's something that would be nice if that would ever be there. Yeah. But I have to push that myself. So then there's always everyday life, which takes over and deadlines of other people as well. But that would be nice.

Jennifer Yoffy  47:20

Yeah, I'd love to see it.

Hans Gremmen  47:21

Yeah, me too.

Jennifer Yoffy  47:25

I really appreciate you doing this with me today was wonderful, and informative and interesting and inspiring to me for sure.

Hans Gremmen  47:34

Well, thanks a lot. It was super nice invitation. And I would be most happy to talk to you.  Just five hour difference. Normally, it's always six.

Jennifer Yoffy  47:50

Do you not do daylight savings where you are?

Hans Gremmen  47:53

Yeah, they did. But they do it this weekend. So I think it's just I don't know.

Jennifer Yoffy  47:58

Who decides these things?

Hans Gremmen  48:00

I don't know.

Jennifer Yoffy  48:01

Because there's also like a couple of places in the US that don't do it at all.

Hans Gremmen  48:06

Oh, yeah. That's what we noticed when we were traveling through different states. Then once we were in I think it was Arizona or something and we were there an hour early for the cinema. So, well anyway, I don't know who decides it? I think it's...

Jennifer Yoffy  48:24

Yeah, and then why wouldn't the whole world coordinate if you are on board with doing it? Why not all do it the same weekend?

Hans Gremmen  48:34

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I also have no idea.

Jennifer Yoffy  48:39

This needs further investigation.

Hans Gremmen  48:41

Definitely.