Jennifer Yoffy  00:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the ounder and publisher of Yoffy Press in Atlanta, Georgia. This is a podcast where we talk to artists about their journey, how they got where they are, what right and wrong turns they made along the way, and where they're heading next. Louie Palu is a documentary photographer and filmmaker whose work focuses on social political issues such as war, human rights and poverty. His work has appeared in festivals, publications, exhibitions and collections internationally. He's a 2016-2017 John Simon Guggenheim Foundation Fellow and a Harry Ransom Center Research Fellow in the Humanities at the University of Texas at Austin. He is the recipient of numerous awards, and he is well known for his work which examines social political issues such as human rights, conflict and poverty. He's currently working on a long term project in the Arctic partnered with the National Geographic magazine, National Geographic Society, and is a National Geographic Explorer. In 2019, his work was selected for the Arnold Newman prize for new directions in photographic portraiture. He also has published two books with Yoffy Press, Front Towards Enemy and a Field Guide to Asbestos. Please welcome my good friend, and awesome photographer, Louie Palu, to the podcast. You usually work somewhere else, you know, Afghanistan, or the Arctic or whatever. And then, you know, COVID, and you are back home in DC. And lo and behold, like, the craziest stuff is happening there. And you're, you're right in the middle. So was that like fortuitous? I mean, did you feel like really fortunate that you were able to continue to work? I mean, the circumstances, you know, the reasons that you had something to photograph were pretty ridiculous. But...

Louie Palu  02:08

Yeah, you know, I think the great thing about Chloe being my partner is that she's not only a photo editor who works with visuals, and the kind of photography that I do with a lot of photographers all over the world. But, you know, in all of this, you know, because there's very difficult decisions to make, like, in the middle of this, or like, say, January 6, like, did I make the right decision? And Chole's reminded me like, hey, you're just following your training, that's what you're trained to do. Like, I went right into that crowd on January 6, at The Capital. That's what I'm trained to do, you know, I did it safely as I could. But when the pandemic hit, this is what I do. So it's not a war zone, or some of the other social political issues that I cover. But it immediately became something that I'm like, Okay, I'm a front line (that is not just word,) but a front line witness, and I go document things, and I'm an independent witness. So I thought, okay, what's really important, there's a lot of people covering a lot of different things. And what's happening to the government like, because if that collapses, then that is the beginning of how everything crumbles. And here in Washington, The Capital isn't just this piece of architecture, it's this meeting place where all the critical information around the country kind of is accumulated at critical masses, and all these people that we've entrusted to be our leaders, whether we agree with them or not, from all these diverse parts of the country meet and talk about what the best decision is to make. And when the pandemic hit, they went on a recess. I mean, that doesn't mean they weren't still doing what they do. But there was, no one was, nobody was all together in the same place doing what what we're used to government doing. And I consider that a pretty serious crisis. So, you know, Washington, DC is a really unique space because it's the space with which the whole country sort of looks to to air their grievances and differences and or, or champion, you know, their accomplishments. And I thought, Okay, I'm going to walk, the capital is four miles from here, I can walk there in an hour and the White House is maybe 45 minutes. So I just started walking the streets and in some ways, it was this microcosm, symbolic of the whole country. Because the homeless were out on the streets and they didn't have masks, none of us had masks. And you kind of got a you..., I was reminded that there's, there are real issues that are small in the grand scheme of things but are very important for us to make documents of like what were happening to homeless people. There's a very large homeless population here, like every American city. Where were the politicians? What were they talking about? What were they believing and not believing? What were...? What was the plan? And so, after six weeks, the government came back. And, you know, we already had a political situation, which was very, I don't even know what word to use..., fraught. Nothing captures. And then it just this, we usually feel like we've we, we read these things in textbooks, and it's like, Wow, what a time like 1968, or the Nixon era. And then after the pandemic sort of became this national emergency, international emergency, this narrative unfolded, that was like, my training kicked in, it's like being you know, I'm not saying it was a war zone here. I don't particularly like people pointing to the pandemic like it's a war because there's political rhetoric people use for wars to claim and take power of things, or to control messaging, like, it's, it's emergency, and if you don't follow it, then you're a traitor. So, but it was like this serious crisis. And we were in the unknown. So then, you know, George Floyd was murdered. And here in DC, you know, immediately, there were people in the city, there's a community, and the President just, they didn't personally have it out, but they were. It started out as a protest. And it became weeks, weeks of, at times very violent. And when I say violent, you know, there were some protesters who were violent, there was some police officers who were violent, and it just, all these unresolved things, the Civil War statues, you know, I.... Yeah, everything came to a head, you know. I feel like an interest... I mean, it's been a fascinating time. But I think for so much of so many of us in our lives, like so many things, kind of, we're standing still. And, you know, we aren't, we don't have all the distractions of life, you know, travel and going to work every day. And, you know, a lot of people were just, really, you couldn't, you couldn't get away from the bad things that were happening. You know, it was like, we're all just kind of sitting here watching it, and not able to turn away in any way, you know. And yeah, I mean, I think a lot of things came to a head that have, hopefully will, you know, continue to push us in the right direction.  You know, I really felt like, with everything, you're talking about it in terms of an example of what I'm trained for, what I'm really best at, how I as a photographer, have most effective is our book Front Towards Enemy. I mean, you know, that that Rebecca Senf essay, where she talks about how the President can message directly to an audience, and how, you know, it's about shaping narratives. You know, as much as those are photographs, as we both know, for the audience who may not, you can re edit the book, and you can change the narrative of the war in Afghanistan. And that really is as much as their photographs literally, of Afghanistan, which it serves that purpose. The book is really about, it's about deconstruction. And I think that this is a theme that I'm really working on these days, is sort of this, this, this work as an artist or on deconstructionism, and, and it really is about narratives. And just being a photographer on the streets, you know, I'm very well aware of it, like how I photograph who's doing what, but it's not only what I take photographs of, and this is something a lot of listeners I think need to focus on is the role of editing and sequencing. Just because I take the photograph, that doesn't mean I'm actually going to publish that photograph. There are too many things going on, for me to decide what I am and I am not going to lose, not lose, use - use I mean, sorry. And I think that it's not it's people only think of the taking. I mean, it is a much more complex process. And I think that authorship is really, really important and commitment and originality and i think that you know, the great thing about verifying your information sources, or Who's that photographer over there working before you block their camera, or claim that they're doing something is to understand who they are, and who they're working with and who they work for. And in the middle of a riot or a protest that's very, very complex to do. I had some conversations when I could, you know, but I think that we're definitely.... Sorry, go ahead.

Jennifer Yoffy  10:12

Do you mean people on the other end of the camera are blocking it, like you're saying that, I mean, I know that you as a photographer, and kind of professionally, ethically, your belief system is in line that, you know, you want to document what's happening without putting in your own spin or your own opinion on it. And so you're trying to create a very even, and just straightforward, like, a not manipulated picture of what's happening. But that that's not always the case, obviously, and people don't want their stories spawned in one direction or the other.

Louie Palu  10:57

No, I, I agree, any protest I've covered in 31 years, I've been a photographer, people wonder, like, you know, who's this photographer, and I do my best. And, and sort of, when I say align myself, work with organizations who are respected, who are easily identifiable, like, so that when I'm in this moment, where I don't have time to have an hour conversation, and there are rocks, flying and tear gas, people get it, you know. There's sort of something bigger happening when we go into these, these demonstrations. And that is what benefits everybody and there needs to be a record of it. There needs to be a tool for our children to look back, you know, if there are no photographs, right? And if there's no diversity of opinion, then really, you know, what will we be left with? To a degree when we look at, say, the second World War? Okay. I think that, you know, it, there's, there's no doubting what Hitler was. So if Hitler were in power now, should we not show photographs of him? Should I not be photographed? Like, I think of John Heartfield, who actually did collage, you know, criticizing Hitler and the Nazi regime. Imagine if there are people like, Hey, you know, he's kind of rebuilding the country, we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be criticizing him. So I think that, you know, I try and think of the 20s and the 30s, leading up to before the world really understood what he was, and sort of all the all the different views people were having, and some were promoting what he is, and then later on, it was revealed. I think that it's it's important that we are constantly evaluating the way (if we want to call) what I make cultural materials. But that's why I'm a part of professional organizations. So I'm, I'm constantly questioning myself, and I'm scrutinizing myself, like, whether it's the National Press Photographers Association, or the Society of Professional Journalists, because I am sort of making a pact, that I am part of an organization with a group of people that have a diverse group views, and they're looking at my work, I'm looking at their work, and we're constantly questioning ourselves, like, first of all, what how are we doing things? What's going right? What's going wrong, and let's, let's keep moving forward. And doing what we do.

Jennifer Yoffy  13:21

A quote that you have, or that I've read, where you said, "I believe what I do is not a career, but a way of life and a belief system." And that really comes through with everything that you're saying, and just the value around making sure and holding yourself to that standard of making sure that it's, you know, not biased in any way. And that, and I do think you make an important point that it's not just making the photograph. So there's a whole piece of that where, you know, you have to take, like an egoic aspect out of it. Or you're not trying to like, Oh, this will get a lot of eyeballs, right, like because it's just it's so over the top, gory. So you're trying to take yourself and you're kind of personal, whatever gain, you might get out of creating a sensationalized photo. So there's that aspect of like, your choice in what you're photographing and how you're photographing it, or you being respectful to the subject, and to the scene that you're in. But then it's also, I mean, there's also just a, I'm going to shoot as many things as I can right, because I'm here and I've got to get it all and then you come back, and you need to edit or you need to work with an editor to make sure that what you're actually putting out in the world that people will see continues with that, you know, being unbiased and being straightforward and, and we all know I mean, depending on the edit, you can tell a million different stories and you can tell them a million different ways and you've talked a lot about how important having a photo editor is, which I'm like, well, maybe that's why he married one. (laughs)

Louie Palu  15:08

That just worked out in my favor. 

Jennifer Yoffy  15:12

This is so important I need it in house. But yeah, I do think that that is a piece that that's not really well understood that what you do after is not just, here's everything in my camera. But really being intentional about what you allow to be put out in the world. And something that is pretty specific to your line of photography versus like a fine art photographer who really is their vision, their story, their narrative is however they want to make it.

Louie Palu  15:49

No, I agree. And I think that, you know, we will be strongest in the photo community if we allow, I mean, this is obviously I'm going to say this for the record, this excludes racism, and, and all the other prejudices that, you know, if you look at my work and read my bio, it's like really clear what my beliefs are, and what I think are the, you know, be a good person, you know, I think that but, you know, I think it's important that there isn't only one narrative. You know, the narrative that suits New York City isn't going to suit Oklahoma, the narrative that suits Los Angeles is not going to suit, you know, Moscow, Russia, the history and the social political makeup of these places is very, very different. So we have to accept to a degree, we're all working toward a greater good, but that photography is, is what brings us together as a community, and that we can show all these different things to try and spur bigger conversations about these bigger ideas in the world.

Jennifer Yoffy  16:51

Well said!

Louie Palu  16:53

 I have notes, I have notes over here.

Jennifer Yoffy  16:54

I was thinking about how you have photographed in some really challenging conditions. So I mean, we've just been talking about COVID pandemic, DC riots, you know, all of that, but also Afghanistan for years. And the Arctic, which I hear is real cold. And, you know, so this kind of mine is being extreme, but also knowing, like this asbesto work that you've done, like I do, being close with people who are experiencing really, you know, such a brutal and unfair disease. How do you prepare for these situations, like mentally, physically and emotionally?

Louie Palu  17:39

Well, I think that that's evolved and changed over the years. You know, you want to you see something that's wrong. You know, I'm, I know that there are a lot of photographers out there who are like, or artists or whatever you do, you see something that's wrong, and you want to be a part of something to make it right or create something, photographs in our case, or a book to make it a tool for people to be like to shift their consciousness like oh my God, that's that's not right. Or I had no idea asbesto was like this. Or you know, I thought the asbesto book we did. You know, it really unprecedented when I covered asbesto and for any anybody listening, which in simple was an insulation, it was a mineral that was put in almost every house, ships pipes. And basically, whenever it was tampered with, or you, you might break your drywall open in your wall to fix or renovate your house, you could breathe in this dusting. It would give you this terrible cancer only associated with asbestos. And I think we created this handbook, where people who weren't understood or no one knew about their millions of people around the world died from this and continue to die, could say, hey, in 15 minutes, they could say, this is what it looks like this is what my father or mother or family member looked like and this is how it happens and this is why. And it's a nice, short, quick little book. And I just think that, you know, that that book is an artwork for us. And it's it's documentary photography, but I think that it's also has served this incredible function where people can share it with politicians, and union members, and they can talk about it. And I think that, you know, I try and think of that as I prepare. So what's my work? What's my function here? Like? What's my role? You know, and what, what is my training, which involves my experience, telling me to do. So I think that when preparing for things, I think the first thing is is do I belong in this space? Should I be taking photographs of this? You know, and I think that there isn't a blanket answer. I think that this is something people who challenge having a one response thing need to think about is there is no blanket answer. You know, I think being a photographer in Afghanistan, like 2006-2010 there were very few, if no Afghan photographers covering the war, I think there are a lot of Afghan photographers covering the war now. I'm not so needed there anymore. So, you know, I think that there are spaces where I can see a value to what I bring, like the Arctic. I'm from Canada, we're an Arctic country, I grew up with winter, very cold, harsh winters and being on the land with my father, who was a hunter, my whole childhood. So I feel like, you know, I have the training, and I have a, I have a view that's not being covered. And a lot of times, the way I approach things is I have a view that's not being shown, I think I can bring something new to the conversation. And I think that, you know, when it comes to say, like, Afghanistan, I really felt like, we all know about Afghanistan now, generally. But when I got there in 2006, everybody's focused on Iraq, we got to the eyes of time, our, our, we should always step back and think about it, and sometimes take our time, before we form a statement, like take a few days, take a week, these are very serious things. And especially people who are very respected in our community who say things like on Twitter really fast, like take a break, say something really strong, you know, no one was paying attention to the war in Afghanistan. No, I mean, there are some places that wanted to publish my work. There are a lot of places who did not. And when I was taking the book around, when I was trying to form the book before you came along, and it was great. The narrative here is you came along to me and you're like, Hey, I see something here. A lot of book publishers like they were looking at it with the eyes of, wow, there's so many books in Afghanistan, we don't need another book in Afghanistan. But what they didn't really take a critical look at is that I was gonna make a different book on Afghanistan. And we found each other through community, because we participated in these big, you know, SPE, Photolucida, Houston Foto Fest and we meet as a group, and I'm like, wow, I never thought of it like that. I've learned something new. I think what Afghanistan really gave me and which is an extension of my parents experiences as children in the Second World War is that being a good person means something. You know, I think just taking a step back, even when we have these big debates, which are critical, where people say on social media, start making it personal, insulting people, I really think like, what's the value of it? I just think that what I really learned is....

Jennifer Yoffy  22:25

Yeah, is it necessary, is it kind?

Louie Palu  22:27

And I just want to be a good person. And, you know, when I work on projects, I really collaborate with the people I photograph. It doesn't matter who it is, you know, to a degree, like, then, of course, there's no silver bullet, you know, there's a lot of conversation, and I agree with it about asking for consent and for permission. But if I'm covering a group of right wing extremists who are racist, I'm not going to go ask for permission to take their photographs, you know? if I have to, to, like, not be beaten up, because they need to know who I am. Or I'm in a position where I could be violently harmed, maybe there will be a conversation there. But, you know, what I've learned from history is, every time we think we figured a silver bullet, there's something that doesn't work on it. And that time is constantly a changing and evolving thing. And we, we can't think of justice movements as we win, and then it's never gonna there's never going to be injustice ever again. And, and the the paradigm is going to continue changing like I, I, because of my parents experience and where I grew up and my wife's Jewish, I'm very much constantly watching what anybody who's an anti semitic or a neo nazi, or what they are up to, since I was a kid. It's how I was raised. A lot of my friends were Jewish, I was in a real multi, multi ethnic and multicultural, multi religious neighborhood.

Jennifer Yoffy  22:28

That's why we get along.

Louie Palu  23:19

Totally, yeah. And it's like, I won't stand for that. I won't stand for it. And, you know, I've watched you know, in the 80s, it was neo nazi skinheads. And now, it's lots of other things. And people build narratives around it, like it's pride or heritage. You know, in World War II, there was a pretty serious effort from this country to put everything we had including hundreds of thousands of lives along with other people who believed the same thing to destroy this ideology in Germany, and it keeps coming back. So I think it's all our duties matter if we're white or our black or, or Asian, we got to always, it's always going to be there. It's always going to be coming and it's something that we have to constantly be watching. Because it's good. It's like the Hydra, you cut the head off in a new head grows back in and it's constantly changing the way it looks. So I know a lot of prominent people who who hunt down Nazis and or follow these movements so that we always know what they look like. And just when we think we know what they look like, they change and they're very subtle, how they seep back in and we got to always be constantly working on it. If, if anyone here is listening and wants to fight for this, they have to realize that you can never run out of breath because its going to, you know, 20 years from now it's going to look completely different. And they always come smiling, you know? And so and so we should be studying like, you know Leni Riefenstahl's films who were propaganda promotional films for Hitler. We got to watch that so we can learn how to see it and recognize and be like, Uh huh, you can't fool me. So I think that that's sort of an underlying fundamental, which drives how I prepare for things. So I think that...

Jennifer Yoffy  25:10

...that kind of skepticism and not taking something at face value?

Louie Palu  25:34

Yeah, you know, uh, you know, my, what's incredible is like, my mom had a grade six reading level, my dad had a grade four, because they were in Italy, and then they immigrated to Canada. And they went straight to work. That was the system. Was that a very just system? No, but at the time, it was like, they were like, Wow, my God, I bought a house and paid the mortgage off in three years. And I got a job and it's Wow, it's, it's incredible. So I, when I prepare for these things, it's, it's what's my purpose? How am I going to work? You know, who are the people that I might impact? What is that impact gonna be? And who can i partner with and or collaborate with, to achieve this sort of thing? And, you know, I think there's a big emphasis on sort of, how do I prepare psychologically and physically. And I think everybody's just built differently. I have, I'm a big guy. I'm tall, I'm strong, I think psychologically, I have a lot of experience, and I can get through things. But then I know people who come from completely different backgrounds, you look at them, and sometimes you don't think they're tough. But they're five feet tall, and they're a woman and they're super, they're tougher than me in some cases. So I think that, you know, the camera equipment stuff is, there's some, there's small decisions, really, in the scheme of things. And then, sort of psychologically, I try and prepare myself that how badly things could go, you know, and that, I come back to editing. Just because I take the photograph, it doesn't mean it's gonna go into the world right away. I, you know, I'm in my 50s. Now, so at this point, I kind of have a setup system, like right beside the door, I have like a list and it has, you know, de escalate, escape route, you know, I have some key things written down, you know, think safety...

Jennifer Yoffy  27:30

That's interesting, yeah.

Louie Palu  27:31

Yeah, cuz I got it, you know, January 6, I knew there was gonna be a protest, but I had no idea it was gonna escalate to the point where I'd be on the front lawn of the Capitol Building, surrounded by three guys with bats questioning my motives, you know?

Jennifer Yoffy  27:47

Wow.

Louie Palu  27:48

Yeah. And then, you know, in the middle of that someone walked up to me who was protesting, who had an axe handle and goes, wow, is that a Mamiya Six medium format camera?

Jennifer Yoffy  27:57

(Laughs)

Louie Palu  27:58

Are you shooting film?

Jennifer Yoffy  28:00

America... (laughs)

Louie Palu  28:01

And then I said, Yes. And then he goes, cool. And then he ran off and started hitting a window with an axe handle on the Capitol.

Jennifer Yoffy  28:08

Oh, my gosh, I can't even.

Louie Palu  28:10

It's like a surreal... It's like a surreal kind of thing, you know? Narratives, people try and change a lot of narratives. You know, there's like, sort of, you know, in some ways revisionist history, there's already people who are elected in office trying to say that January 6, wasn't a really big deal. I was there, January 6, was a very big deal. I think that, you know, I worked in that building for 15 years, I've covered government for that long. I think that what happened on that day, we need to remember that and so how do we remember that? How do you remember the protests? At least here in Washington, they were all over the country in the world, in Black Lives Matter Plaza, you know? How do you know, if the police erect a new fence who's going to go photograph and tell everybody, you know, who are they aligned with? What ethics do they follow? I think there's all these questions, you know, and if something is not correct, we have editors, we have a process which we do correct things. But it's, it's a constant, like, you know, I pretty much have had a camera bag by my door ready to go, every night. It's calmed down now a little bit. But at one point, I'd be getting on my bike at four in the morning, because they had pulled down a confederate statue, I need to go document, you know, I get there and there's this Confederate statue with a noose around his neck like surreal scenes of things I never thought I might not be the witness to them happen. So you know, even even what people need to understand to is, say people who are activists, and I think activists are important, of all types, is that they can create a narrative that suits what they want to do, but then someone could come along and re edit it and post it somewhere online that completely is separate from theirs. And I think that the the important thing about that is that journalists are a great sort of this, this other pillar that can say Hey, no, that's wrong. We can question things. And we have a mechanism to do that.

Jennifer Yoffy  28:11

I can't even wrap my head around that. So I'm going to ask you, I asked these questions to everyone on the podcast, and I feel like this is a good point. What do you feel like is the best career decision you've made? And by that, I mean, you know, something that has happened to you that you did that taught you the most, or that kind of turned things into, you know, a direction that you're proud of, or it could be big or small.

Louie Palu  30:26

Well, I think it kind of happened when we did Front Towards Enemy. And I think what it was was, we all look a lot of photographers or artists, whoever's listening, that we like, and I always use the metaphor of music, and I think you remember this moment. You kind of look around, and you're like, well, first of all, everybody is listening. If you want to learn something from me, the fundamental issue, you should be happy. If you're not happy, then then you're not doing what you like. And there are unhappy moments like you apply for a grant, you don't get it or trying to get a book deal, you know, etc, etc. But that's part of it, no matter what you do in life, right. But I think you need to understand, you know, and maybe it's a question some of you are still in, and they won't be answered for a long time. But who are you? I realized that, you know, when I think of the things I want to do, is that who I am? So, hey, I think we've all been..., sometimes some of us have been fooled, that we want this giant, super best quality paper; I don't like the word coffee table book, but, you know, that's what we think. But you know, what, I realize, at least right now, and it could change, I am not that, I've never been that. I'm a punk rock band. I'm...

Jennifer Yoffy  30:42

I do (laughs) You are a punk rock band!

Louie Palu  31:43

I'm Black Flag, a band I grew up on and and when we think of the metaphor, you know, maybe one day I'll headline the stadium using that metaphor of the band. But right now, I'm that underground voice in the basement underground concert, singing about stuff with my photographs, is the metaphor. You know, that's where I exist. That's where I'm like, I love this, I love how its happening!

Jennifer Yoffy  32:08

Well, and I feel like you and I are kindred spirits in that way. And that we're like, it's always looking for an unconventional maybe a less precious way to share things in a fine art setting. So like not being locked into this, like you said for you, like this coffee table book with, you know, super fine art, and that would make it more expensive for people. I do remember being in Paris with you, well, we met up there. (laughs) We didn't take a trip to Paris. But we were in Paris at the same time and Aperture had their photo Book Award, like finalists up and you came up to me and you're like, you got to come see this and there were a few different books that had really unconventional ways of exhibiting, and you were like, We got to start over. Like we need to do this in completely different way. And we did. And it's amazing.

Louie Palu  33:12

No, you know, I think that and we all can change and evolve, like, you know, I love music, music has shaped so much of what I am in continues, it's part of a daily ritual and experience for me. You know, I listened to like, kind of, in some ways, experimental extreme music, like, sort of not really traditional heavy metal, but a lot of stuff is like some kind of political or social thing. Like when I think of Henry Rollins and Black Flag, I really identify with that, you know, it's, I feel what they're talking about. And that's what I really feel like my work needed to reflect, so people don't get confused, not literally reflecting the music, but the fundamental of what my identity was, as a photographer. I think that there are photographers who should publish big, glossy, big, you know, that's what it is. That's where they belong. That's the conversation. You know?

Jennifer Yoffy  34:04

But that wasn't the conversation you wanted to have?

Louie Palu  34:07

No

Jennifer Yoffy  34:08

And it wasn't authentic to you, and how you approach the world.

Louie Palu  34:11

And what led to Front Towards Enemies, I published these three newspapers that you could take them apart and re edit the photos. It was, it was really, I'm only understanding the last few months, I deconstructed, take everything apart, I want to re examine it, I want you to be able to take it apart. So because you can form your own opinion and you could be a rebel, you can change what I made. And I think that that's very empowering. And it actually allows people to change something and feel like I can form my own opinion. And I think that you know, as as I look at how I do things, you know, some things that aren't conventional become traditional that were untraditional, that's the history of everything. You know, when certain bands were like indie bands, now they're like playing stadiums and that's fine too. But I think that when we did Front Towards Enemy, it was like that I realized I was, you know, when you're struggling with it, like, Who are you? What are you trying to say? What's the format or object that's going to say it for you. And I think that when you look at it, I think some of the most successful art, it's so apparent that they had struggled. Struggles, good, they had struggled, and then they hit on something. And they, they trusted in it, and hey, sometimes, like, people need to understand to get the Front Towards Enemy took me nearly 30 years. So it took me 30 years to figure out, I'd published a bunch of books that weren't me, but I was working through it, you know, and that that book is the pinnacle of of my ideas. It's not just the photographs, it's the format that they're presented in as well. That's important.

Jennifer Yoffy  35:46

So the flip side of that, would you say that something that you feel like you made a wrong turn or kind of, you know, not the right decision for you, but that you learn from it? Would it be that you had done other things along the way that you didn't, that didn't feel as authentic or in line with you? And that you learned from how that felt? Or is there another...

Louie Palu  36:10

Nope, you described that exactly well. But sometimes I didn't know, sometimes you're like, I don't know, it's okay to not know. And I think that people who really, I think a lot of times what we all do, and there's we have no real choice, I don't think there's any artists who like, is born and they're in a room and they don't look at anything else. And then suddenly, they're this original that does not exist, okay, for the most part. Everybody looks at other stuff. And I think that we're like, Hey, I, I like the Bauhaus art movement. Okay, so you start emulating them, and then you make your own version of it, it changes because everybody's individual. But I think that say in my, in my case, I did things that I thought, for my knowledge at that point, like seeinng the first five years of my career after college and 10 years, I was following that felt right. But I don't think I really hit something that was uniquely me, till Front Towards Enemy. I think the photographs that I was making, and here's the thing, when I make my photographs, they can be single things like a single idea. But when I edit a whole book and put it together, it becomes something else.

Jennifer Yoffy  37:21

Absolutely.

Louie Palu  37:21

And I think, that, you know, I think I was having success in how I took photographs, like the the picture making thing, what I was seeing politically, you know, I like raw photographs. It's it's no strange Photoshop filters, straight out of the camera. And it is this tool that that helps me make a document of what I just experienced or witnessed. I like it nice and simple like that, that is not changed. But then I need to obviously take that and put it into something where people, you know, where there's a kind of a bigger set of ideas. And I think for a long time, I the things I made were successful, because they were leading me to what ultimately, I transformed into something else. And I realized, aha, this is what I've been trying to say all along. You know, it's like, a, I come back to the music all the time, it's like putting out a bunch of singles before you can make the album you don't quite know how to make the album yet, you know. And so...

Jennifer Yoffy  37:30

Yeah, it's time and it's experience

Louie Palu  37:53

And collaborating.

Jennifer Yoffy  37:53

Experimentation...

Louie Palu  37:54

Some people just hit it on the first thing, and then they can't reproduce it for the rest of their lives.

Jennifer Yoffy  38:32

Yeaah, right, the one hit wonder.

Louie Palu  38:34

Yeah, I mean, and then they struggle. Again, you can feel it. And when you're when you're not like you feel like it's not quite hitting, that's a natural part of the process. You should be struggling, it's always going to be super hard. You're going to be really frustrated, you're going to hear some yeses, you're going to hear a lot of noes, or you hear a lot of yeses in the beginning and then it's no for the rest of your career, or no all your life and then yes, at the end, or a mix of it all. You know, and I think that that struggle is some you know, I think there's a lot of people I can you know, I watch online, I look at a lot of photographers at a lot of different levels and they criticize the struggle. And I think that what they need to do is look at the struggle and ask what did I do this time? And what can I do that's different the next time?

Jennifer Yoffy  39:30

Yeah, you're solving a problem, you know, of your own work. So this is the last question. And I'm interested in your answer. Obviously. (laughs)

Louie Palu  39:41

I'm ready.

Jennifer Yoffy  39:43

What is your barometer for success in photography? Do you feel like you're there? Or do you feel like you still have a lot more that you need to do to feel satisfied with your accomplishments?

Louie Palu  39:57

Hmm, you ask these hard questions. These are both hard questions. They seem like simple questions but they are really, really hard.

Jennifer Yoffy  40:02

Well, I mean, and I know like, you've achieved so many things and awards and Guggenheim, and you know, books and so many opportunities. And, I mean, it is huge that you're able to support yourself with your work, which is rare? So do you feel like this is the success that you had always wanted? Or does the bar kind of keep getting raised? In your own hands?

Louie Palu  40:31

Oh, I think that that's a really great question. And there's no one answer, I'm going to give a couple, I'm going to give a couple of thoughts here. I think that it's true, I'm blessed I, I can never really complain. You know, my bio, when it's read as sort of successes, can be looked at sort of getting grants or other people saying, Hey, we like your work, we want to give you this title. But I would say this, I think that the greatest moment of success is coming to understand who I am as an artist, and how I can express these feelings I have about people in the world. And how I can make art that achieves all of that. That's the success. I think that I think that there's a lot of artists out there who look at success as a grant, I mean, a grant, there is there is an element, or someone's definition of that as a success. But I want people to know that I'm I'm 52, and the struggle for money. And I'm a I'm a very good grant writer, I have been turned down probably more than anyone, you know, fine, I have won some, but if I were to string my grants together, I wouldn't even be at the poverty level over 32 years, you know, of being a pro. So I think that being able to express my deep feelings as an artist, in a way, that is, I feel is uniquely mine, is the greatest success. And I'm able to do it in a manner that has taken me 32 years to realize, after college. That doesn't count, I was in a great art program in high school, and there's so much in there. And so much of it is built on what some people would deem as failures, so much. Some of them are personal failures, like, you know, anyone who's lost a parent, I'm like, God, I wish I could talk to my dad right now. There's that conversation, I have so much regret. That's all a part of who I am as an artist, or, you know, all I mean, there are grants I've been applying for for over 30 years. And I still get that letter. And that's cool. Some people achieve what I've achieved in shorter time. But you know, I took a lot longer. And I think that there's a manner in which I can talk about things that we all experience and take photographs that express that in a way that I feel really is an expression of my struggle, not being able to realize that for a long time. And a small part of success is Yeah, I make a living as an artist so that, you know, I can read a bunch of critical texts, I could watch films, and I can live in that space where I'm thinking about concepts and ideas and the tangible part of it, like, I can make prints and I can edit a book and that that is a smaller success. But I think it's more about me expressing my, my personal feelings, and ideas about the world that I know a lot of people feel the same about that is that is the greatest success. I think if someone's going to pin their success on winning an award or grant, which is just part of the work, I think that they need to sort of take a step back and understand that when you do get that grant, you know, a photography career isn't just winning one award after five years. A photography career could be your whole lifetime. So there better be a bigger fundamental narrative, or you're not going to last.

Jennifer Yoffy  44:27

It's just like anything else, right? Like you need to be able to self validate not look only to external sources for that, you know, for someone to tell you you're good. You need to, you know, from the inside know that you're good and not focus so much on what, what other people think.

Louie Palu  44:49

Well, also Yeah, like, a lot of times, I'm like, God, you know, I'm finishing my next feature documentary right now. There are times like, you know, watching it for the 30th time making, correcting and I'm like, thinking, God, this is terrible. It's like editing some work recently. I'm like, this is horrible. But then you have to always remember your training. And I think that with training comes, who are your mentors? Who are your inspirations? I think that, you know, right now I'm mentoring a young photographer. And I try and think of what I can, what did I miss when I was heading toward what I think is my success right now? How can I help him achieve his? You know, what were some of the things I was like I wish someone would have just helped me with that. You know, with that, that button on the camera, it held me back for 10 years. The idea was there, but the execution bad.

Jennifer Yoffy  45:48

Right, right. (laughs)

Louie Palu  45:49

So and, you know, in short, what I always like to say, you know, this is me, I never lose, I always win. When I get that grant letter saying, sorry, thanks for applying, you didn't get it. I think, well, I learned something about how I applied, I'm going to try something different next time, or I'll apply to a different grant. Or maybe that is a terrible edit. And no wonder I didn't get the grant. Though I did it. Or I reread my statement,  Was I in a hurry, that was really bad, or well, eight grammar mistakes in his grant proposal. You know? No one runs at 100%, we're at best like 90, and then if we're having bad days, or 80. So I think that we always got to take a step back and be self critical. I think it's really important. And so just when I have one success, I have 30 failures, even after 30 something years, I'll have failures. And what brings me back is I love other photographers work. And that always brings me back to why I got into this because I love being a photographer. I love looking at photography. I love how it makes me feel about the world. It's a unique language, whether it's documentary or conceptual. If it's a melted print, or just a straight silver print, I can love it all because it helps me understand the world and I think that really that's what we all need to gather around as a community.

Jennifer Yoffy  47:13

I love that. You're so good at this. What can't you do, Louie Palu? Well, I think I'm gonna end the...

Louie Palu  47:20

That was kind of a good ending...

Jennifer Yoffy  47:22

Fuck yeah, that was strong.

Louie Palu  47:25

Well I was just like, Louie, you better bring it home man. Do not...

Jennifer Yoffy  47:28

Yeah, just get in the zone! (laughs)

Louie Palu  47:30

You gotta edit the story up but don't shit the bed on this man, Jen's relying on you.

Jennifer Yoffy  47:41

Thank you for listening to the Perfect Bound podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. And I hope you will tune in next time. We release new episodes every two weeks on Thursday. And you can listen to past episodes on the Yoffy Press website Yoffy Press dot com slash podcast or on Apple podcast, Spotify, or anywhere else where you regularly listen to these types of programs. Thank you again. And we will see you next time.

Louie Palu  48:15

Yeah, I'm sorry. There's just, I'm  being bombarded right now. And it's like, wow, it's really nice to see you. I feel like I know you so well, that it's like you're a part of how I think and live as an artist. Like, we collaborate on stuff. So you're always you're always there. You're always there for me and my little artists circle, so I'd like it. But then it's like, the other part of me is like my God, I haven't talked to her in so long and seen her.

Jennifer Yoffy  48:46

I know, I know.